Lean Legends | Hugh Carnahan & Jack Bussey | Small Biz Rescue & JJB Corporation
Hugh Carnahan (Small Biz Rescue) & Jack Bussey (JJB Corporation) are lean maniacs from two different parts of the world, with a love of simplicity and freeing people from burden.
In this episode we talk about:
How lean can develop you into a public speaker
Going to Japan to study lean
The power of 3Sing
How to stop doing things the way you’ve always done them
And the importance of “cloning yourself”
Check it out!
Links:
Hugh’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hillbillymillionaire/?hl=en-gb
Jack’s YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@JackBusseyUK
Book a Lean Made Simple Tour: https://www.leanmadesimple.com/book-a-tour
Welcome to Lean Made Simple: a podcast for people who want to change their business and their lives one step at a time. I’m Ryan Tierney from Seating Matters, a manufacturing company from Limavady, Northern Ireland that employs 60+ people. Almost ten years ago, I came across this thing called “lean” and it transformed my life… now I want to share this message with as many people as possible.
This podcast unpacks our learnings, lessons and principles developed over the last decade in a fun, conversational way that will hopefully empower you on your own business journey — whether you’ve been doing lean for years or are just starting out!
Check it out on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts or any other podcast platform by searching “lean made simple.”
Thanks and all the best.
— Ryan Tierney
Magic Moment: “Where is the HAM in you business?”
Full Transcription of Episode
Jack Bussey (00:00):
You need to reset to the basics, 100%. Sweep, salt, standardize for six months. That's what you have to do, you just get your stuff in order.
Matt (00:11):
Hey guys, welcome back to Lean Made Simple, a podcast all about transforming your business and your life, one small step at a time. Joined today with two absolutely epic lean maniacs here at the Lean Summit. We have Jack and we have Hugh, two people that have been hyped up massively to me by Ryan and two very different journeys, two very different parts of the world.
(00:32):
And so, just really, really quick, in a sentence or two, where are you from and what are you selling, to be crass about it. Tell me a little bit about your business and where you call home.
Jack Bussey (00:42):
Yeah, so home is Norfolk, two hours north of London, and we manufacture products from sheet metal.
Matt (00:48):
Nice.
Jack Bussey (00:48):
So, anywhere from one millimeter to three millimeter. Home, garden, and industrial.
Matt (00:54):
Class.
Hugh Carnahan (00:57):
I'm out of Springfield, Missouri, and I was in manufacturing. After COVID, I'm no longer in that. I predominantly do real estate.
Matt (01:05):
Cool.
Hugh Carnahan (01:06):
Went from no experience spots. I think we're at 287 units now, three years later.
Matt (01:11):
Congratulations.
Hugh Carnahan (01:12):
And so, I've got that running okay enough that I help other entrepreneurs with lean, effectively, that are not in the manufacturing space with something called Small Biz Rescue, and I'm writing a book called Why You Failed A Two-Second Lean.
Jack Bussey (01:29):
Damn good.
Matt (01:30):
Please send me that book, or send me the link to it so I can buy it as soon as it becomes available. Phenomenal. So, same question for both of you, to start off. How did you first come across lean, and paint a little bit of picture of the before and the after. Jack?
Jack Bussey (01:44):
Manufacturing for around five years and I had chaos. Same story. We run out of this, we run out of that. I'm firefighting, running around everything, everything come back to me. And, looking on YouTube, where else, and up popped Paul Akers Lean Tour, and I was like, "Wow, look at this guy. Clean, tidy, organized, the people happy." I was like, "I need that." And, I started to look how and it was like, do a morning meeting, and at that point, I was like, "I'm not standing in the front of..."
Matt (02:18):
I want this, but I'm definitely not doing that part of it.
Jack Bussey (02:22):
I can't stand in front of my 10 employees. What, crazy. So, that was-
Hugh Carnahan (02:25):
It's weird.
Matt (02:25):
And, just to totally rudely interrupt you, I don't think people appreciate the culture in UK and the island of Ireland, because we just don't do stuff like that.
Jack Bussey (02:37):
No.
Matt (02:38):
It's just so against our culture.
Hugh Carnahan (02:40):
Really.
Matt (02:40):
Oh, dude, you Americans, you're built different. You've got this confidence in this ease and this... We're shy, awkward. Like, oh, I don't even want to talk.
Jack Bussey (02:49):
Well, you seem to be okay.
Matt (02:49):
Yeah, I hit my head too many times.
Jack Bussey (02:49):
But if there's a problem in the store or out in public, generally, the UK, we shy away from that.
Matt (02:57):
Right.
Jack Bussey (02:57):
And we try and shrink to bypass problems or not be confront-
Matt (03:05):
Kings of sweeping it under the rug here.
Jack Bussey (03:07):
Yeah. Yeah. So that was me, 100%. I didn't know how. I was like, "I can't do that." And then, it was just by chance, I showed some people his video, and said, "We need to do this," and it went by the wayside. And then, Paul announced, "Oh, you can come to Japan." I was like, "Wow, this is my opportunity." Do a one-minute video. And then, I was debating for one week, can I do that?
Matt (03:07):
Oh, that was the barrier to entry, was-
Jack Bussey (03:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Matt (03:32):
Oh wow.
Jack Bussey (03:32):
So, you have to one-minute video, and-
Hugh Carnahan (03:34):
Then you get selected or denied.
Jack Bussey (03:36):
Yeah, exactly.
Hugh Carnahan (03:37):
So, you didn't have any YouTube videos up at that time?
Jack Bussey (03:40):
I had a couple, but nothing of any...
Hugh Carnahan (03:43):
Wow.
Jack Bussey (03:44):
And it was just, push myself. I know that you have to push yourself in life, to make yourself uncomfortable to do things that's going to make you grow. Hence why I say yes to everything. That's why I'm here, and...
Hugh Carnahan (03:57):
For those listeners that don't know, the Japan study mission, if you have the chance to go, I highly recommend it. But it's like drinking from a fire hose. If You've never been exposed to lean or didn't have two-second lean semi running beforehand, it's overwhelmingly incredible.
Jack Bussey (04:11):
Yeah.
Matt (04:12):
Yeah.
Jack Bussey (04:12):
It's classed as a PhD in five days, and I've been there three times now. I just thoroughly... Intense information and it's like, go, go, go. It's a military operation. You don't waste a minute, and it's showing you what is possible with good planning and eliminating the waste.
Matt (04:30):
Phenomenal. Hugh, what was your gateway drug?
Hugh Carnahan (04:34):
Okay, so, I went to college, and I had a chip on my shoulder, maybe I still do. I don't know. Being the Boss's son. So, it was like, okay, I'm going to go out... In the United States, at least, it's usually really frowned upon. Everything's been handed to you, and so, that's usually not the case. Either A, you're spoiled rotten, or B, you have to overcompensate. And so, I didn't want anything to do with the family business. Well, flash forward, I go to college, I go into the IT field, and then my father ends up passing away in 2014.
Matt (05:08):
Wow.
Hugh Carnahan (05:09):
And so, I'm still in the IT field. I'm in California at that time, and I was married at the time. Wheels fall off that marriage. I then move back to the family business in 2016. My father had been gone at that point for four years, and the company, basically, he was the visionary and everybody else was the integrator. If you read Good to Great, it's like the genius with a thousand helpers. Well, now, the genius was gone, and not that they mean it, but in a lot of organizations, you don't have processes, you don't have systems. You just have, "Oh, there's the one guy that knows the things." Maybe two people if you're lucky.
(05:48):
So, the company was aimlessly drifting. And so, I ended up sitting... I remember, coming back to work for the family business and helping, and I just start Googling "How to save failing companies."
Matt (06:02):
I love it. That's a recurrent theme. These desperate late night Googles.
Hugh Carnahan (06:07):
You're like, "How to save failing company, what to do, how to run a business properly."
Matt (06:12):
Company endlessly drifting. Please help. Google's like, "Sorry, I'm not a person."
Hugh Carnahan (06:18):
And then, we were in manufacturing, so, you've heard of lean before, maybe in the wisps of things, but you're like, "Oh, that's for Toyota. That's for big massive companies." And I remember, I came across a video called, "Lean is Simple" by Paul Acres. It's hour and 33 minutes long, and he just sits there and he talks and he just reintroduces, and it changed my life right there.
(06:40):
I remember where I was sitting in the office and I was like, "Wow, this might be possible. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't really film anything, never filmed anything on my phone before, but I'll figure it out." And then, I got the two-second lean book and just started watching all of Paul's videos, and that led me to it. And then, I was just too stupid to know how hard it was supposed to be. So, I just did it. I did what he said in the book. I didn't know anybody to tell me one way or the other, and I just figured it out.
Jack Bussey (07:07):
Yeah.
Matt (07:07):
So, for both of you guys, in order to try anything, there has to be an element of belief. In those first early encounters with this thing, what was it about it that, in your gut, there was that belief that we're like, "Yeah, I'm actually going to give it a go."
Jack Bussey (07:24):
Well, I see Paul riding around his factory on a scooter on polished concrete and this, and I was like, "I'm giving that a go. I need that." We need these engaged people that have a nice, enjoyable place, environment to work, and the customer can only benefit and the byproduct will be a successful business. So, that's the bit that I was never looking for. I was looking for a smooth running operation. So, it's magical, but it's easy to over complicate it. We need to make sure we are going back to the simple bare bones of it, because as humans, we like to add stuff. We need to take stuff away.
Matt (08:02):
It makes us feel smarter, doesn't it?
Jack Bussey (08:04):
Yeah.
Matt (08:04):
It feeds that ego.
Jack Bussey (08:05):
So, you have to careful.
Matt (08:05):
You become the genius.
Hugh Carnahan (08:07):
Right.
Matt (08:07):
We all want to be the genius.
Jack Bussey (08:09):
Yeah.
Matt (08:09):
It's crazy. The humility factor of this whole lean thing is just-
Jack Bussey (08:13):
Exactly what it is, grow people.
Matt (08:15):
Yeah, yeah. Early on, was there a singular improvement that made you be like, "Oh baby, we are cooking here." I never thought that I would say, "We're cooking on gas now."
Hugh Carnahan (08:30):
Oh man, I don't know. There's definitely the most memorable improvement that we ever did, and that was, in the China side. We took an operation from... I have a four part video on it as it was happening and I think I said seven days down to three hours. It was really 22 days down to three hours and saves that company like 7 million a year, forever.
Matt (08:52):
Yo.
Hugh Carnahan (08:53):
But that was more like a Kaizen event. We had already gotten... That wasn't really the biggest thing. I think it was after visiting Seating Matters, I went back and it was just retraining the focus back to the people and then it was just machine-gunning out all these incredible ideas where, before, it was pushing against a wall and a train, and it was just a complete difference. Yeah, the improvement I made was cool and we rearranged stuff and we add air hoses and water lines but that wasn't what it was about. That's the byproduct. And so, it was just going back and really implementing the "Train the trainers that train the trainers that train the trainers."
Matt (09:34):
Train reception.
Hugh Carnahan (09:35):
Yeah. Train reception, that's exactly right. I mean, it was like night and day. Within one month, we did what I had been trying to do for 18 months.
Jack Bussey (09:44):
Wow.
Hugh Carnahan (09:45):
It was almost overnight. I was like, "Oh," and they've been telling me this since the very beginning. I just missed it somehow.
Matt (09:51):
Phenomenal. Class. Any improvements for you that stand out?
Jack Bussey (09:55):
I think in the early days, we changed the whole layout of the factory and this wasn't like moving tables, we got big laser cutting machines that... Day to move one, and it all specialized equipment. So, we literally moved the whole factory around to make raw material going one way to flow around the factory.
Matt (10:14):
Oh, that's nice.
Jack Bussey (10:14):
Finished goods come out the last door. So, we make the product, we make the packaging, it merges together, and it leaves out the other end. But, before, it was like a... Wrong shape. So, it's that flow of the product.
Matt (10:29):
Yeah.
Jack Bussey (10:31):
I don't know what it saved. We never really calculate in minutes. We know that's clearly a fantastic improvement flow, product flow.
Hugh Carnahan (10:39):
You'd be shocked at how many businesses don't think to do that. I mean, they're just like, "Well, why do you do this thing?" Well, in 1977, we did it this way.
Jack Bussey (10:47):
Yeah.
Hugh Carnahan (10:48):
Why didn't we do that in 1977? Well, Bill was in charge. He's retired now.
Jack Bussey (10:53):
Yeah. And no one questions it. It still happens.
Matt (10:57):
You've heard that story about the ham, cutting the end off the ham?
Hugh Carnahan (11:00):
Oh yes, exactly that story.
Matt (11:03):
I love that story. Do you know it well enough to share?
Hugh Carnahan (11:06):
I can give it a go.
Jack Bussey (11:06):
I don't know that story.
Hugh Carnahan (11:08):
You don't know the story? Okay.
(11:11):
So, the variation depends, but there's a new couple, they just get married, and the wife, newlyweds, she's cooking a roast and she always cuts off the end of the roast, and she puts it in a different pan and she bakes it, and it's wonderful roast, it's great, but the husband's like, "Out of curiosity, why do you do that?"
(11:32):
"Oh, we've always done that in my family. I'll ask my mother." So, she calls up her mom, and her mom's like, "Oh, I don't know why we do that. As a family, we've always done it that way. I'll call Gran." She calls up grandma and she's like, "Oh, that's an easy one. When we got married, we were so poor. We had a small pan, the roast wouldn't fit."
Jack Bussey (11:55):
Very good. I like that.
Hugh Carnahan (11:56):
And it's absolutely the way every business or organization's run.
Jack Bussey (11:59):
Yeah.
Matt (12:00):
100%.
Jack Bussey (12:02):
As a business, we probably have something like that that I don't know about yet, or somebody's not questioning. Maybe I'm going to find out.
Matt (12:08):
Well, there's a very niche question to ask your teams. Where's the harm in your business?
Jack Bussey (12:12):
Maybe that story will bring it out of people.
Matt (12:16):
Phenomenal. But this is what I love about what we've experienced at this summit is, simple stories told in a very simple, engaging way that the pennies are just dropping, over and over and over again. It's very, very cool.
(12:30):
Final question for both you guys. For people listening and watching who have either just started their lean journey, are on the fence about starting it, or just feeling beat up like they're getting their asses kicked, they're in that "Fallen off the bandwagon" moment that we've all experienced.
(12:46):
Talk to those people, Jack, for a second.
Jack Bussey (12:48):
You need to reset to the basics, 100%. Sweep, salt, standardize. Even delete the standardize, sweep and salt for six months. That's what you have to do. That's cleaning and getting rid of crap for six months. You don't even need to mention anything Japanese in that six months. And it's baby steps, literally, repeat baby steps every day of that, cleaning for six months.
Matt (13:15):
And that's sweep, sort, and standardize.
Jack Bussey (13:18):
Standardized, but-
Matt (13:19):
That's what you guys are... When you say three s-
Jack Bussey (13:19):
Yes.
Hugh Carnahan (13:20):
Yes.
Matt (13:20):
... That's what you're talking about.
Jack Bussey (13:22):
But you can do it for six months, delete the standardize. Just get your stuff in order.
Matt (13:27):
Sweep, sort, sweep, sort, sweep, sort-
Jack Bussey (13:27):
Sweep sort-
Matt (13:27):
... Every nook and cranny.
Jack Bussey (13:29):
... Every site, make everything shine like new. Get rid of the crap. We're humans, we like to have things, but as soon as you get in that lean mindset, you won't buy something because you'll think, "Well, where am I going to put it? I've got to maintain it now," because you're understanding what happens when you purchase something, so you stop buying things. And I've still got crap from years ago in my home that I need to deal with, and my focus has been my workplace, and we've got rid of tons of crap. I've got two shipping containers full of my knuj. I always... As Paul Akers calls it, it's junk spelt backwards. So, two containers stuff that we might need that we need to just get rid of.
Matt (14:13):
I love it, man.
Jack Bussey (14:14):
Yeah.
Matt (14:14):
Hugh?
Hugh Carnahan (14:15):
Yeah, so, it's funny you ask this question. So, this will end up being the premise of the book, I'm writing-
Matt (14:22):
World exclusive.
Hugh Carnahan (14:23):
World exclusive. Find it somewhere, I don't know. And it may not be named that, I just think that's a catchy name for people because they are starting. But, it's back to the basics. But often when, and I was this person, because I'm talking to me when I first started lean, that I wish I knew, and I'll give you the extremely simple answer and then I'll expand on it just a little bit. Lean is about developing your people, period. It's about the people. Now, I'll go into the mechanism on how to do that or how I found to do that. But most people who struggle, even the business owners here that I'm talking to, a lot of people are like, "Oh my gosh, I just can't get employee buy-in. Oh my gosh..." This excuse, or, "I'm making glacial pace and I'm not sure why, we're trying." And they're extremely knowledgeable. A lot of them are even more knowledgeable than I am in all kinds of stuff. They're brilliant. Well, how did they get that way? They didn't start out that way. That's because they're constantly teaching it. Every day, they're trying to train.
(15:28):
Jack just said it. He was trying to train his folks and he became an expert. He's like, "I don't understand why they don't see it." Well, it's because you're teaching it. That's why you see it. You got to get them to teach it. And so, the framework is do three s every day. I like the idea of the getting rid of the standardized, but that's just the memorization side. He probably did it every day-
Jack Bussey (15:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Hugh Carnahan (15:49):
... Because that is the standard. The standard is, you get rid of stuff and you clean every day, and then go back to the basics. And here's the number one kicker that I found with organizations that fail or rather struggle horribly, and this includes mine, is, I tried to have a production meeting, the Gemba floor and the office people meeting, separate. And then, finally, one day, I almost exhausted myself after 18 months, and then I visited Senior Matters. Pulled them all together into one meeting, because the Meeting's not about production. It's not about the shop floor. It's not about whatever, it's about developing each other. And then, I made it to where I wasn't teaching. It was everyone had to teach, and then everyone said that the entire time.
(16:30):
So, that right there is, if you are hitting a wall, stop, pause, re-evaluate your process. Are you the one that's teaching all the time or you causing teaching to happen? Because when they teach, now all you have to pay attention to is What's being taught. If you do a specific thing in your company and you're like, "Oh, we sell this kind of product and we keep making these mistakes." Okay, now your job is to make sure that that works its way in. "Hey, everybody's going to train about this specific product defect we have and how it occurs, and how to prevent it." Boom, you give that three weeks, you'll never have that problem ever again.
(17:07):
And so, that's the secret, that's the essence of the secret. Most people try to push the trains themselves, and Paul told me once he said, "Hugh, you're trying to push a train, which you need to do it by yourself, you need to clone yourself." And so, for all those people who are wondering, and I pose this question to even Jack, it's not, how do you clone yourself? It's, what if you had... How many people are in your company?
Jack Bussey (17:29):
20.
Hugh Carnahan (17:29):
What if you had 20 Jacks? It's not, what could you do? It's what couldn't you do? And that's the purpose of it, because all the other stuff doesn't matter.
Matt (17:38):
Imagine the amount of videos you could put out if there was 20 Jacks.
Jack Bussey (17:40):
Yeah, exactly. But then, imagine, I'm not the strongest communicator. So, it'd be 20 guys that are not quite communicating thoroughly. Let's just do it, but we're not talking about it. We're telepathic, you know what we're doing, maybe that'll be the case.
Matt (17:55):
Class. Well guys, honestly, thank you so much for that. Really appreciate it.
Jack Bussey (17:58):
Yeah, thank you.
Matt (17:59):
We're saved by the bell here. The three course meal is on its way.
Hugh Carnahan (18:01):
Awesome.
Matt (18:02):
So, yeah, I really appreciate you taking-
Hugh Carnahan (18:04):
Yeah, brilliant.
Matt (18:04):
... The time for us. Those insights we're bang on the money, and thank you so much for listening and watching. Be sure to check out these guys. We'll put links to all of their stuff in wherever you're listening, whether it's Spotify or YouTube. We'll put links so you can check them out more, and be sure to check out some of the other episodes that we've filmed here at Summit.
(18:22):
That's a wrap.
Jack Bussey (18:23):
Thank you very much.
Hugh Carnahan (18:24):
Thank you.
Matt (18:24):
Legends.
Jack Bussey (18:24):
Brilliant.